Sunday, April 1, 2012

Why does it still surprise me?

It is amazing how R' Shmuel Kamenetsky chooses to write a response to the issue of Metzitza B'peh found  Here.

To my knowledge the metzitza b'peh issue has not caused depression and suicide, ruined lives and pushed people off the derech.

Yet still silence on the issue of homosexuality when the Rosh Yeshiva himself admitted to his error in signing Jonah's "Torah" declaration. It's unbelievable to me.

How does he choose what is important enough for his time?

I continue to feel that God needs better representation on this world. I am happy that there are some wonderful people and even Rabbi's in this world. The overwhelming majority and at a minimum the ones most in the public eye continue though to push me away from Orthodoxy.


  1. There is Orthodoxy and ultra. The religion cannot be judged by bad representatives. Dass Toira is fake. But, the whole truth ain't necessarily better. You have to be true to yourself, yet take others into account.You are.

  2. Dear Frum,

    Could you please elaborate about Rabbi Kamenetsky's regretting the Declaration, this is the only time I have heard this and hope it is true.

    Here is what I think about the Declaration:

    The "Torah Declaration" attempts to help Jews. But instead it hurts them because it promotes the view that people with same sex attractions can actually be "cured" or changed into people with only opposite sex attractions. It has adopted the view of reparative therapy that childhood damage causes homosexuality, and that it can be cured. The problem with that is that this is really just wishful thinking and not true. The very people that would be willing to forgo the prohibited behaviors often also would very much like to believe that they can actually "convert" not only the lifestyle but the actual attractions completely. They end up finding out years later after this approach that is not the case and are devastated. This results in some suicides and leaving the faith.

    Aside from all the mainstream psychiatric, psychological, social work, the World Health Organization and counselling groups even many experts among people that have been involved in "reparative therapy" mostly agree on this. It does not work in changing orientation.

    Dr. Abba Borowich, an Orthodox psychiatrist who practiced reparative therapy for Orthodox homosexuals for nearly 30 years concluded that this was an ineffective course of therapy which only increased suffering among his patients and their families .

    Rabbi Chaim Rapoport, an ultra-Orthodox rabbi who is the author of Judaism and Homosexuality: An Authentic Orthodox View, has said, "I am not obligated to believe in a failed therapy because it fits my theology better."

    See also
    According to those who do believe in such conversions, the sucsess rate is around 0.5%

    The 0.5%% change raises a question, if the therapy does work the success rate should be 99% or at least 51%, but if it doesn't how can anyone change?
    This question is not answered in the research I have read. My opinion is that there are a few people who get involved with sexual relations, for a variety of reasons, with the same sex even though they are actually not oriented that way.
    Another answer is that some people are not capable of admitting or knowing what is really going on.
    Finally, many of these studies included people who make a living from claiming that this change is possible.

    The leader of Exodus the largest public group of people (several hundreds) who changed from a gay to heterosexual lifestyle admits that this does not include an end of same sex attraction for 99.9% of the group.
    "There has been a change in our beliefs about orientation change focused therapy and we don’t believe it’s effective.”

    Dr. Spitzer
    “If people can recognize that being a homosexual is something that cannot be changed and that efforts to change are going to be disappointing and can be harmful, if that can be more widely known that would be very good. "

    Another issue is that the Declaration group
    led by Rabbi Kamenetsky, primarily relies on
    and promotes
    someone who is of bad character, who has a history of misleading people for profit, Arthur Goldberg of Jonah.

    This organization has many problems
    aside from a criminal history.
    It can't provide any proof of change, It has relied on crackpot therapies that have included touching that is prohibited by the Torah, and it relies primarily, and in great detail on the idea that Jesus will provide the change.